- This topic has 24 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 3 weeks ago by
Trade Officer.
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Posts
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Steve Flint
Originally posted by Bill Wyatt Millington
I have become aware over the recent weeks that there has been quite a bit of chatter about the EMGS website: its good points and areas where it can be improved. This includes the forum, where despite a number of excellent modellers regularly posting about what they are doing we feel that there is much more potential.
As you may well be aware the website was completely revamped a few years ago and we did the best job we could in getting a new website design done and implemented. However, technology changes and peoples’ expectations of what a website should offer change. I believe that the time has come to re-look at the website and further enhance it.
To this end I would like to build a small group of individuals familiar with web sites to take a thorough look at the site and make recommendations. These may be changes to improve it, or how to administer the site to make it more flexible and user-friendly. I understand that peoples’ views on how a website should look are as different as they are individuals so there should be discussion around what should be done.
There is someone prepared to lead such a group and a small number of initial members assisting. I am now asking for volunteers to come forward and assist us in taking the website forward. If you are comfortable with understanding how websites function, whether from a technology or a user angle, and want to help shape the future of our website, please get in touch with me at chairman@emgs.org.
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This topic was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Trade Officer.
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This topic was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by
Steve Flint.
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This topic was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by
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John Cutler
Dear Mr Chairman
Are there any reliable statistics available on EMGS forum users?
For say 2024?
What were the number of posters (not postings)?
What were the number of viewers (not viewings)?
How many members have email addresses?
What are the above as a proportion of members?
Are there comparative figures for 2023?
Hopefully you have this data; if not, maybe you should ask yourself why?!
I think we need to approach the (apparent) problem of low forum use from a marketing viewpoint; your background should help.
Some ideas to generate greater use of the EMGS forum.
1. Run an annual competition for the best photogenic layout, in EM or P4, shown on the forum. I strongly recommend that the layout does not need to be in working order; look how popular Little Muddle is on RMWeb (it may be operational now but not originally). Attractive photos attract viewers, and not just members. I suggest a small prize for the best submission plus coverage in the Newsletter. Hopefully this would attract layout narratives as well as the photos. The more are online, the more forum viewing users there will be.
2. In conjunction with the above, let online (only) members judge the competition. Is that possible or would it require more (voting) software?
3. If 2 is feasible, replace some of the existing annual competitions with online ones with members voting online. Yes, this means more pictures on the forum =more viewers.
4. To attract some armchair modellers, I suggest running a similar annual online competition for the best model photo on the forum. It will need a separate forum section otherwise it becomes uncontrollable for voters. Obviously the photographer can be (or maybe should be?) independent of the model (but it would be polite to ask the modeller’s permission!). Offer a small prize plus publishing in the Newsletter. If this attracts some professional photographers, so much the better. Again the objective is attractive online pictures to attract an audience and encourage activity. This might even encourage some members to leave their armchairs and photograph EM layouts or models at exhibitions! One issue might be how to prevent PhotoShopped images being submitted -or should we be bothered?
5. Ban classified adverts from the Newsletter or charge for them. For those that do not have internet access, offer to place the ad online for them with their contact phone number; this cannot be more work for the editor than laying out the advert for the Newsletter and the advertiser does not have to wait for the ad to appear.
6. Would it not help accountability and democracy if the EMGS meeting minutes (I do not mean the “Official” or Statutory Minutes) were posted on the forum? OK locked and without any facility for comments (maybe). OK maybe I would be the only strange person reading them…….
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Richard Slipper
Websites serve a number of purposes. Just a few thoughts.
A website is not an afterthought. For many organisations it has become the core of their operation – marketing, an information bank for both those inside and outside the organisation, selling, and for social bodies a forum for engagement between the organisation and its customers – which in the case of a Model Railway society is anybody allowed access to the data provided – and between those customers. I use the word customers as anybody engaging with the web site is a consumer of the facilities it provides – whether passively or active.
The content on the web site – other than that generated by customers – is the organisation’s product(s) – information, goods, and communication and whatever else they identify as a product.
To create the content a clear set of objectives for the website are required which meets the needs firstly of the customers and secondly of the organisation. Customers will not use the web site if there is nothing in it for them. There must be rewards for the time they invest in using it.
The organisation must understand it’s product(s) – what they have been (historical data is useful and can be important but must be relevant to current and future users) – what the present products are and what they will be.
EMGS faces complexity in that it seeks to serve the needs of 3 groups of modellers – those who model in EM gauge, those who model in P4, and those who model in neither but may be members for other reasons. Of course there is overlap between the three and there is overlap with other societies. All three groups of customers need to be served. The common theme is probably a desire to create better more realistic model railways and in this respect a lot of the concepts, skills and processes are transferable – it is only gauge and stock running gear where differences arise.
Accessing the information needs to be quick – as few clicks as possible – perhaps 3 as a maximum. This means efficient and reliable search tools which return the items the person hopes to see. If it doesn’t provide a reward they’ll soon turn off.
Maintenance – the role of webmaster is unenviable. The quality of data available must be up to date and correct. They will probably receive contributions of varying quality. They must ensure copyright is not breached, where member data is stored security plus GDPR has to be of the highest importance, where financial transactions take place interfaces with payments systems arise. If a mailing database is set up further interfaces may arise and this needs maintenance.
The principals of the organisation must all be fully behind the website – everything they do must consider how the web site can be used to improve or communicate the activity being undertaken. They must get new, additional or corrected information to the webmaster on time. An out of date website is as much use as last years calendar. Half baked commitment will result in a half baked web site and disgruntled users.
The relationship between the website and social media needs considering as the latter can act as a prompt and feeder for users to more detailed and extensive resources on the former.
Hope that provides some ideas. 🙂
Richard
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This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by
Richard Slipper.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by
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Dai Davies
Not as extensive a proposal in this post as in those above, but a simple (?) suggestion of likes/approval for posts. You see this on most sites. It also makes the site look busier as it shows that people are looking at posts!
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Stuart Firth
That’s a good idea – I must admit when I did a loco build I wondered if anyone was reading it!
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On Stuart Firth said
That’s a good idea – I must admit when I did a loco build I wondered if anyone was reading it!
I did read your post, and wanted to put a like!
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Richard Slipper
On Dai Davies said
Not as extensive a proposal in this post as in those above, but a simple (?) suggestion of likes/approval for posts. You see this on most sites. It also makes the site look busier as it shows that people are looking at posts!
Like 🙂 I agree, not everybody wants to make new posts with or without quoting the OP to show their approval or appreciation of a contribution.
I note that the S4S forum also seems to lack likes. I cannot think people on either would be motivated to post ‘clickbait’ so do not really see a reason why likes are omitted.
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Paul Willis
On Richard Slipper saidOn Dai Davies saidNot as extensive a proposal in this post as in those above, but a simple (?) suggestion of likes/approval for posts. You see this on most sites. It also makes the site look busier as it shows that people are looking at posts!
I note that the S4S forum also seems to lack likes. I cannot think people on either would be motivated to post ‘clickbait’ so do not really see a reason why likes are omitted.
Knowing a bit about this, it’s the simple fact that the core forum software (phpBB in the case of the Scalefour Society Forum) doesn’t have the capability written within it.
There are plug-ins available from third parties that promise to provide such functionality. However, adding plug-ins creates more complexity in the package, there is the increased risk of crashes when one piece of software updates but the other doesn’t, and of course at the end of the day some poor volunteer has to maintain all of this.
There is a long-running joke made in comments on the Scalefour Forum of “Where’s the Like button”, but it’s never taken seriously.
What is quite serous is that Likes can have problems of their own. I have one friend that becomes extremely distressed if his posts on Facebook don’t gain as many likes as he hopes. It’s all part of the gamification of society (have a look at some of the academic literature on the “hooks” used by apps on phones, and realise how you are being emotionally manipulated), and as is inevitable in games there are always losers…
Best wishes,
Paul
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John Cutler
Interesting Paul, I never considered the psychological effects of Likes. But then I do not use social media; too much misinformation, celebs and nasty people. I do not think Likes give as much feedback as we might think. For example I only give Likes on Amazon to reviews that are exceptionally good. Similarly I will only bother to review an item I have bought if it is very good or bad or is highly unusual. Then there is the question of bias. I would probably vote down any article written by a Jerseyman!
I prefer the objective statistics of number of views. It is unbiased, cannot be manipulated (assuming the AI robots are kept out -but why would they bother with the EMGS?!), needs no extra input from a viewer and should be easily provided by the software; the statistics are in the database somewhere! I would just like to know if expanding on a topic is a waste of time or not.
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Richard Slipper
On Paul Willis saidOn Richard Slipper saidOn Dai Davies said
Not as extensive a proposal in this post as in those above, but a simple (?) suggestion of likes/approval for posts. You see this on most sites. It also makes the site look busier as it shows that people are looking at posts!
I note that the S4S forum also seems to lack likes. I cannot think people on either would be motivated to post ‘clickbait’ so do not really see a reason why likes are omitted.
Knowing a bit about this, it’s the simple fact that the core forum software (phpBB in the case of the Scalefour Society Forum) doesn’t have the capability written within it.
There are plug-ins available from third parties that promise to provide such functionality. However, adding plug-ins creates more complexity in the package, there is the increased risk of crashes when one piece of software updates but the other doesn’t, and of course at the end of the day some poor volunteer has to maintain all of this.
There is a long-running joke made in comments on the Scalefour Forum of “Where’s the Like button”, but it’s never taken seriously.
What is quite serous is that Likes can have problems of their own. I have one friend that becomes extremely distressed if his posts on Facebook don’t gain as many likes as he hopes. It’s all part of the gamification of society (have a look at some of the academic literature on the “hooks” used by apps on phones, and realise how you are being emotionally manipulated), and as is inevitable in games there are always losers…
Best wishes,
Paul
“Knowing a bit about this” or anything else does not seem to me to be a reason for not considering change in a wider debate Paul.
Sadly, your comments comes over as negative and even an attempt to cancel debate by the closed nature of their tone.
Software doesn’t cater for it. – My reply, change the software.
Plug-ins cause crashes. – Doesn’t seem to be a problem on on other platforms.
This type of ‘it’ll go wrong’ thinking reminds me of a camera I bought in the early 80s, a Pentax ME Super with some automatic exposure capability. My father, an electrician with an interest in TV and Radio, drew in his breath and shook his head, ‘you do realise there’s more to go wrong’ – well of course it never did and the ‘more’ was always interesting as I’d never known any mechanical camera he had that went wrong anyway. So his opinion was just that, his opinion. Other opinions were available. And now I have a computer in the palm of my hand with a teeny tiny lens that can take fantastic pictures – and that doesn’t go wrong either.
Hard pressed volunteers. – When you volunteer, you volunteer. No point complaining. So don’t volunteer for something you cannot do. Or learn how to do what is needed properly. “If I don’t volunteer then the organisation will cease to exist.” Consider – if others haven’t volunteered but who could – maybe it’s not that important to them. Or if it is then an existential decision might draw them out. If anybody volunteers then they get the rough and the smooth and will only endure if the customers (members, users, etc etc) tolerate their contribution.
Long term joke on S4S nobody takes seriously. Oh dear. Perhaps they should – because as you know S4S is also having similar debates as EMGS about the future shape of that society, whether it will (should) survive and how to attract new members. Without change neither will, independently. Maybe they don’t need to. Maybe their job is done for those people from the 60s-00s who wanted the product they supply. Maybe todays people don’t or insufficient numbers of them do want that product.
Likes – for adults there will be a number of people seeking engagement whose ego is fragile so that lack of engagement causes them anxiety. I suggest that the anxiety exists in spite of Facebook and will be exacerbated in any situation where there contribution is not received in the way they think it should be. Pointing the finger at one situation – especially novel ones to which people and society are adapting – is like blaming a black cat owning women with a facial wart for potato blight. There may be other reasons for the situation. I suspect you know many more other people who don’t give a fig about how many FB likes they achieve or even give it a second thought. Facebook or any other platform for that matter is not in itself the problem.
For teenagers and children I think the issues are far, far different. Their inexperience, vulnerability, impressionableness, and attitudes, desire to be accepted, wanted, belong, etc create a myriad of situations which can create distress and harm.
Unless these societies in general have a large membership from these age groups I suspect the problem of likes is almost non-existent.
Specifically, much will depend, as you know I’m sure – but others may not, upon how this friend of yours posts on FB whether publicly, to friends only or to friends and friends of friends only, and will depend upon how many people see the post and how many are motivated to respond. There are many factors affecting it. For example a small number of ‘friends’ will result in few likes. Posting irrelevant, meaningless or clickbait content will be spotted and ignored by most.
I doubt that the unknown number of members of the EMGS and the 1700-1800 of the S4S are the types of people who would be the victims of the ‘gamification of society’ and would, as a group, have the benefit of critical thinking skills, a sense of realism, and be generally pretty grounded one way and another. To suggest otherwise is, I feel, a trifle disingenuous. But with your experience of both societies you will know more of them better than I.
If I was to predict I think that it is inevitable that within the next ten years the two finer scale 4mm societies will need to merge as neither will be viable alone. (I don’t understand why EMGS caters for P4 in the first place apart from trying to compete for members or for tribal reasons) There will have to be better and more user friendly online services to provide for an increasingly disseminated membership. It may be necessary to revise the purposes of the society(s) to cater for all those aspiring to finer scale 4mm models railways whatever the gauge (yes even 4.125′) as the disciplines of detail and finesse in scenery, buildings, operation etc become more generally adopted by a wider community. I’m sure some are already members for that very reason.
Enough. This could go on for ever.
But at least the forum is getting some engagement. 🙂
Richard
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Richard Slipper
On Paul Willis saidOn Richard Slipper saidOn Dai Davies said
Not as extensive a proposal in this post as in those above, but a simple (?) suggestion of likes/approval for posts. You see this on most sites. It also makes the site look busier as it shows that people are looking at posts!
I note that the S4S forum also seems to lack likes. I cannot think people on either would be motivated to post ‘clickbait’ so do not really see a reason why likes are omitted.
Knowing a bit about this, it’s the simple fact that the core forum software (phpBB in the case of the Scalefour Society Forum) doesn’t have the capability written within it.
There are plug-ins available from third parties that promise to provide such functionality. However, adding plug-ins creates more complexity in the package, there is the increased risk of crashes when one piece of software updates but the other doesn’t, and of course at the end of the day some poor volunteer has to maintain all of this.
There is a long-running joke made in comments on the Scalefour Forum of “Where’s the Like button”, but it’s never taken seriously.
What is quite serous is that Likes can have problems of their own. I have one friend that becomes extremely distressed if his posts on Facebook don’t gain as many likes as he hopes. It’s all part of the gamification of society (have a look at some of the academic literature on the “hooks” used by apps on phones, and realise how you are being emotionally manipulated), and as is inevitable in games there are always losers…
Best wishes,
Paul
“Knowing a bit about this” or anything else does not seem to me to be a reason for not considering change in a wider debate Paul.
Sadly, your comments comes over as negative and even an attempt to cancel debate by the closed nature of their tone.
Software doesn’t cater for it. – My reply, change the software.
Plug-ins cause crashes. – Doesn’t seem to be a problem on on other platforms.
This type of ‘it’ll go wrong’ thinking reminds me of a camera I bought in the early 80s, a Pentax ME Super with some automatic exposure capability. My father, an electrician with an interest in TV and Radio, drew in his breath and shook his head, ‘you do realise there’s more to go wrong’ – well of course it never did and the ‘more’ was always interesting as I’d never known any mechanical camera he had that went wrong anyway. So his opinion was just that, his opinion. Other opinions were available. And now I have a computer in the palm of my hand with a teeny tiny lens that can take fantastic pictures – and that doesn’t go wrong either.
Hard pressed volunteers. – When you volunteer, you volunteer. No point complaining. So don’t volunteer for something you cannot do. Or learn how to do what is needed properly. “If I don’t volunteer then the organisation will cease to exist.” Consider – if others haven’t volunteered but who could – maybe it’s not that important to them. Or if it is then an existential decision might draw them out. If anybody volunteers then they get the rough and the smooth and will only endure if the customers (members, users, etc etc) tolerate their contribution.
Long term joke on S4S nobody takes seriously. Oh dear. Perhaps they should – because as you know S4S is also having similar debates as EMGS about the future shape of that society, whether it will (should) survive and how to attract new members. Without change neither will, independently. Maybe they don’t need to. Maybe their job is done for those people from the 60s-00s who wanted the product they supply. Maybe todays people don’t or insufficient numbers of them do want that product.
Likes – for adults there will be a number of people seeking engagement whose ego is fragile so that lack of engagement causes them anxiety. I suggest that the anxiety exists in spite of Facebook and will be exacerbated in any situation where there contribution is not received in the way they think it should be. Pointing the finger at one situation – especially novel ones to which people and society are adapting – is like blaming a black cat owning women with a facial wart for potato blight. There may be other reasons for the situation. I suspect you know many more other people who don’t give a fig about how many FB likes they achieve or even give it a second thought. Facebook or any other platform for that matter is not in itself the problem.
For teenagers and children I think the issues are far, far different. Their inexperience, vulnerability, impressionableness, and attitudes, desire to be accepted, wanted, belong, etc create a myriad of situations which can create distress and harm.
Unless these societies in general have a large membership from these age groups I suspect the problem of likes is almost non-existent.
Specifically, much will depend, as you know I’m sure – but others may not, upon how this friend of yours posts on FB whether publicly, to friends only or to friends and friends of friends only, and will depend upon how many people see the post and how many are motivated to respond. There are many factors affecting it. For example a small number of ‘friends’ will result in few likes. Posting irrelevant, meaningless or clickbait content will be spotted and ignored by most.
I doubt that the unknown number of members of the EMGS and the 1700-1800 of the S4S are the types of people who would be the victims of the ‘gamification of society’ and would, as a group, have the benefit of critical thinking skills, a sense of realism, and be generally pretty grounded one way and another. To suggest otherwise is, I feel, a trifle disingenuous. But with your experience of both societies you will know more of them better than I.
If I was to predict I think that it is inevitable that within the next ten years the two finer scale 4mm societies will need to merge as neither will be viable alone. (I don’t understand why EMGS caters for P4 in the first place apart from trying to compete for members or for tribal reasons) There will have to be better and more user friendly online services to provide for an increasingly disseminated membership. It may be necessary to revise the purposes of the society(s) to cater for all those aspiring to finer scale 4mm models railways whatever the gauge (yes even 4.125′) as the disciplines of detail and finesse in scenery, buildings, operation etc become more generally adopted by a wider community. I’m sure some are already members for that very reason.
Enough. This could go on for ever.
But at least the forum is getting some engagement. 🙂
Richard
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Well, I’ve opened Pandora’s box by the look of it. Bearing in mind that this thread is very much ‘how do we engage people by improving the website’, then I agree with Richard that we should look at how to improve it, and not think of reasons for staying static. The Western Thunder site (which has many EM and S4 members on it) allows likes, and I don’t see that being abused by the members. I reckon we’d provide the same civilised reception on our site.
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Stuart Firth
<p style=”text-align: left;”>I agree, as does RMWeb, the important point being that there aren’t any negative options !</p>
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Bob Allison
Ideas on how to improve the website are always welcome, offers of help even more so, but is this really the right place to be speculating on the mental state of anyone?
The request for “likes” is born of a desire to see if anyone is interested in the post and hence judge if it is worth posting more of the same. Maybe there are other ways to do this – I will inquire.
The volunteers are not complaining, merely pointing out that there is only so much they can do in the time they can spare for this particular aspect of their hobby.
Regards
Bob
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Nigel Burbidge
I’m just belatedly catching up with this thread and agree that a like button would be an improvement. I am a regular poster on Western Thunder and it is generally a pretty civilised place, offering likes and I get a lot of support from other members of that forum.
Nigel
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Steve Flint
Hello everyone. Thanks for your contributions on ideas for the website. I can say that we are slowly in the process of upgrading the site. We have a small sub-group working on its structure with a view to improving its appearance and the navigation. It’s not that straightforward unfortunately due to the WordPress software which is in use, but as its functionality is understood reasonably well by present administrators, we have decided to retain it, rather than start again from scratch. Besides there is a lot of good content already on the site, it just needs to be made easily accessible through no more than ‘three clicks’ away.
Suggestions on how to improve interaction are always welcome, though any extra activity that requires additional administration and organisation would benefit from additional members coming forward to act as coordinators, such as, for example the photographic competition suggested by John Cutler. This reiterates the latter point which Bob Allison made on 31st Jan.
I remember when I was appointed to the Hull Miniature Railway Society Committee in 1979, I suggested to them that the club really ought to try to stage its own annual show at a city centre venue… like other cities in the region were already doing. The committee members all agreed it was a good idea – so long as I organised it! So I did, and ran it for five years until someone else took on the baton.
So if members can help run an activity on the website (or even elsewhere in the Society) do please step forward.
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David Harris
Maybe a bit late, and from Steve’s last post it would seem that decisions have been made.? However for some years i have stuck my hand up at AGMs and asked why we could not have a similar format to Western Thunder/Scalefour ? I have to say that i have never received a logical explanation as to why the software running both of the websites i mentioned was unsuitable for use by this society. To my mind both sites are more user friendly that this one.
I accept that there are probably many reasons why one software programme is better than another, and that a decision has to be made which road the society will follow.
However was it not possible to provide a ‘sample’ of each software/website option which being considered in the Newsletter and ask for a vote by the members which they would prefer, given that it is obvious from past comments that this website does not have a great following within the society, and as far as i am aware there hasn’t been a concerted effort to get to all members via the newsletter, or a one off posting (which with a 6 figure bank balance , the society can afford) and attempt to get a overall feeling as to which way we should go?
It would be interesting to know what the respective operating costs for our current website compared to the other sites i have mentioned and the perceived downsides of the other software compared to what we use, are considering using?
Maybe the above is a bit late but some of it may still be worth a consideration and an explanation for the decision to members?
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Richard Slipper
Although David raises a matter he finds mysterious. I find the lack of activity on the existing platform mysterious too
I suspect there are several reasons.
Using all three forums David mentions from time to time I identify three main types of user. First, there is avid forum user seeking engagement on any topic, opining left right and centre. Secondly there are those who are dead serious and have an obsessional interest in their subject. Thirdly, there are those looking for moderate levels of engagement with moderate levels of intensity of interest.
Groups one and two can highjack a forum and for me this makes it incredibly boring & tedious. The same applies to Western Thunder, S4S Forum and others I find.
Those in the ‘moderate group’ soon feel lost and probably withdraw from activity.
The point I am making (yes at last) is that to run a successful forum it must meet the users’ needs and to decide what it’s format should be you have to understand those needs. Not predict, or guess. Know.
EMGS seems to me to be a quite conservative (small C) organisation. Being 20 years older than that whippersnapper the S4S and despite I suspect a considerable overlap in membership the culture seems to me to be more 1950s than 1970s. Just my perception.
There is a fairly active Facebook Group – EM Gauge Modellers Group – which has 420 odd members and there are daily posts.
There are other Finescale groups too.
For all its problems Facebook Groups and Pages – both of which can be isolated from the tripe by using ‘feeds’ is overall my preferred medium these days.
Perhaps EMGS doesn’t actually need a bespoke web forum if other platforms are already fulfilling its role. Why create more duplication and yet more social media. It would never become the only forum used by EM Modellers anyway. The ship has sailed on that.
Perhaps what is actually needed is a better bulk email service like Mailchimp whereby the society cancan inform members as necessary of events and such like and leave the forums to others better fitted to run them.
Just thoughts.
Finally, an observation, while typing this on my phone I cannot see the full script as the ‘form’ is wider than can be displayed. (I can aee it in landscape mode) Standard Pixel 6 Standard Android latest.
Websites must be optimised for mobile devices nowadays. If not engagement will be lost.
I’m still getting the two log in screens as well. Once on the EMGS splash page and a WordPress sign in. This is the only website I have ever encountered this on. I use many websites daily through all sorts of browsers, with VPNs, and password vaults etc. It’s weird.
If others experience these sort of functional frustrations, they probably give up which may be one of the reasons for low engagement.
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Trade Officer
As one of the original instigators of the current website, along with Steve Young, I feel I need to give a bit of history here
David Macarthy put together the previous website. He was a professional web builder using WordPress and so he built the Society’s site based on that and I think he did it FOC. He also supported it FOC. At the time the Society didn’t deem it necessary to pay for ongoing support for the licencing and so newer versions were not implemented. David sadly passed away about 4-5 years ago and with him all the knowledge of how the website worked. As my background was in IT I spent several months looking at how it worked. However, because there was no support in place, and the software was at least 6-7 versions behind, no changes could feasibly be made without potential problems. The decision was made to replace it, but as we were in a position of potential problems killing the site, a replacement had to be built quickly. We chose to continue with WordPress as porting the data was very straightforward and quick, plus there were a lot of companies that supported it. to answer Dave’s question the whole process of consultation would probably have taken a year before we even started to the build process
Myself and Steve Young spent several months working with Blinkweb to build the current site and port the existing data. As an aside, if we hadn’t moved to the new website the virtual show during lockdown would not have been possible.
At first we didn’t implement a forum as the previous forum was scarcely used. However, we got a lot of requests for one. We looked at BBPHP but that required a separate server plus it needed a bridge to WordPress to enable a single login. As a quick fix we decided on BBPress (it is a specific WordPress plug in) as neither myself or Steve had the time do any proper research. Also, despite appeals in the Newsletter for volunteers to help, there were none forthcoming.
To be blunt, all of the comments are about the forum and not about the general usefulness of the site itself. As the Trade Officer I know it is used extensively to buy items from the stores. The gallery is visited frequently. The Manual Sheets have proved useful to many members. The newsletters and individual articles are stored on the website.
If the only problem is the forum then a group of 5 or 6 members need to get together and look at what is around and how to link it to the current website. And then decide if it is actually worth the effort and cost.
There is obviously an issue with logging in which is relatively recent. To be fair no one has actually reported it. I suspect the introduction of the “Are You Human” check is giving problems. This seems to have changed since the server farm introduced it. I have raised a ticket with our supplier
Finally, from my experience, mass emails will miss at least 200 of our members (no email registered) and paper versions will be binned by and large. I believe it has been tried in the past by the Society
Sorry it was such a long reply but I have been answering most of the above questions over the last 4 years and wanted to put all of the answers together in a single post.
John
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John,
Thank you very much for the above response to my earlier comments/questions.
I, like i suspect, many members are not IT aware enough to know/understand the problems that have existed regarding the website over the past years and i am grateful for your history and explanations.
My questions came , based on my work in the MOD, working with a small firm who constructed a website for VERY large and multi users within a week! I appreciate that commercial life is probably far different than the social world in which the Society operates, but having asked questions in the past and , to be honest, ignored, when i came across this thread i thought it was worth asking my questions again.
Thank you for your explanation of the history of the site.
My one remaining question is: What would be the estimated cost of a commercial website designer setting up a site similar to the Scalefour/Western Thunder sites, which as i said previously, i find far more easily to navigate and the feel , i think, is far more user friendly?
Regards
Dave Harris
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Trade Officer
I think asking about cost is like asking how much is a car. Do you want a Trabant or a Ferrari? I would imagine starting price would be ~£10000 going up to “how much”!?
But again I would ask if you are referring to the forum or the website as whole. Western Thunder is purely a forum and so is not a valid comparison to our website that also has to support the stores, Galleries, Manual Sheets, Membership etc.
From my past 4 years supporting the site, 90% of the complaints, request for improvements etc have been about the forum not the general website
John
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Tom Cunnington
I am not an expert on websites or forums, but do help to administer one for a club and have been involved in the decisions about what products to use.
Most ‘forums’ are commercially available products, with a degree of customisation and integration. That’s why several of them look and behave the same. We did some looking around, and as you might expect the chepaer / free ones are very basic and frustrating to use – a real faff to attach pictures etc -and we even lost the contents of an embryonic forum with a simple wrong key stroke.
The ones we would probably most rate for usability are now priced accordingly – normally with monthly charges which mean that if you don’t pay, it disappears until you do – and they aren’t always that easy to integrate into the more common website products like WordPress (which we also use as it is fairly idiot proof and intuitive) ie using a seemless single registration and log-in
It would be for any management committee to decide whether the annual cost of a ‘better’ forum is a worthwhile use of members funds, alongside willing members to do the customisation / integration or a decision to pay someone to do it.
FWIW – I find this one easy enough to use – reactions would be nice but it’s simple to use and navigate and looks good on screen.
Tom
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Gentlemen
Thank you for your responses to my questions. I readily admit to not being a ‘computer geek’, just someone who uses what is there.
My comments regarding the website comparisons i made earlier , as John said , like others , refer in the main to the forum; although the overall site reaction when entering, changing pages and leaving is very slow compared to a myriad of other websites i visit.
Thank you all for your comments. I will watch with interest how the website develops.
Dave
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John Cutler
Let me say from the outset that I have no experience of social media. Some years ago, my old professional institute advised (i.e. instructed per their compliance team) us not to use Facebook for professional purposes due to privacy and data protection concerns. I have been wary of such enterprises ever since. I am afraid I do not believe they make their money just from advertising. So I do not use the EM group on Facebook.
As one who posts regularly (?) I find the forum relatively easy to use but then I have no comparison to make. It took me a while to learn how to use it properly so I think an Idiot’s Guide For Posters might be useful for newbies. I struggled with getting pictures to fit until someone on here told me they configured automatically at the default setting.
As one who tends to post long articles, it would save time to be able to copy and paste text and inserted photos simultaneously e.g. from a Word document. There seems to be an issue with lengthy posts; two of mine apparently disappeared into the ethernet! If this happens to you, contact the webmaster who will retrieve it for you from the Suspense/Pending folder. This problem is being investigated as to cause. An oddity, by the way, is that you cannot paste onto a blank page; I have to type a character, then paste below it and then delete the unwanted character.
Maybe the topic categories need better organisation? This is something I think every forum I have visited could do with.
I do find the current log-in awkward and time-consuming. I hate the American verification pictures. There must be an easier way?
I am not enthusiastic about some of the “improvements” suggested by others. I dislike the concept of “Likes” (visions of nasty RMWeb-like posts) although I would welcome knowing how many people view topics. See my comments (and other users’) elsewhere on this forum.
I shudder at the thought of changing software. The cost is one thing but unless you have been through such, you have no idea of the human resource required in doing so. Just getting people to agree is a major exercise. Yes, been there, done that, but am far too ancient to do that again! (My long-term girlfriend at the time threatened to dump me.) Remember, please, that we rely on volunteers for all this. No doubt some on here will advocate contracting out such an exercise; at considerable cost. Sorry, someone still has to specify for and instruct them. And worse, make sure the IT contractor keeps on track and the system works; in my experience most do not. Just look at the current Post Office fiasco.
If we do decide to change, please ensure the existing forum posts are transferred across. As RMWeb users discovered there is nothing quite as upsetting as data disappearing that took time to compile (in RMWeb’s case, pictures). I for one would be disinclined to post again; why bother if some IT techie will just wipe it all on an “upgrade”? Also my strong belief is that little or no content =little or no users.
Despite rambling on (yes, I make lengthy posts!), I think all the above misses the crux of the EMGS’s problem. We have an ageing membership. 20% of members do not even have an email address. It is not surprising, therefore, that forum use was limited after its early introduction. It is only recently that posts have reached the level to arouse interest with casual browsers. We need to gently encourage that 80% of the membership to participate more. No amount of IT upgrades can magically produce more topics and posts; only members can do that.
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Trade Officer
Just to complete the information so that everyone knows the background
I have asked for the “Are you Human” challenge to be removed. It will need monitoring on the number of brute force attacks that result. This can impact performance. That should remove picture grid / tick box etc from the login. We may have to reinstate it
At present we pay for use of a shared server, hence the relatively slow performance. In the past I have investigated this and it would cost approximately £50 per month extra to use a dedicated server.
So in the end it is a case of volunteer time v cost
John
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