Sleeper rivets

[Mark StevensParticipant]

Hi,

Can someone point me in the direction of some brass sleeper rivets please ?

As Eileen’s isn’t trading any more I’ve nit been able to find a new source.

Many thanx

Mark

[Bob AllisonParticipant]

Mark,

Our own stores sell rivets with a 2mm head:-

https://emgs.org/product-category/trackwork-track-furniture/?product-page=5

Rivets with a 2.5mm head are currently out of stock, but I’m sure our Trade Officer will advise when/if a fresh supply is anticipated.

But why rivets? Using the functional plastic chairs (also available from our store) provides a much better appearance with less hassle. If you’re concerned about the alignment of rails at the crossings, solder small straps of 3mm x 0.5mm brass to the underside of the crossing and glue them to the timbers.

Bob

[Trade OfficerKeymaster]

I have been trying to get the 2.5mm rivets but I am finding it difficult to get a minimum order quantity from the company who makes them. I am going to have one last try . I do know that members have used the 2mm rivets although I imagine that the the soldering could be tricky

Bob is right in that you can use the plastic chairs. It does use more solvent as the ply soaks it up and it takes a little longer to grab. I have used this method successfully

I was told the ideal way is to coat the sleepers in the solvent you buy from diy stores for plastic waste pipes will make the whole bond stronger

 

 

[Steve YoungKeymaster]

Plumbers use a thixotropic solvent-based pipe cement. This is intended for PVC and ABS pipes and conduits. The one I had was in a can with a brush in the lid. Bit like nail varnish, but a bigger brush, and the solvent was quick thick. The smallest is 125ml and is just under £6.00 from places like Toolstation or Screwfix.

The old can I had gave me a blinding headache, but possibly the formula  might have changed since. Use in a well ventilated space.

[Paul WillisParticipant]

I have been trying to get the 2.5mm rivets but I am finding it difficult to get a minimum order quantity from the company who makes them. I am going to have one last try . I do know that members have used the 2mm rivets although I imagine that the the soldering could be tricky

I have to say, I’m not convinced that the difference of half a millimetre in diameter (so 0.25mm either side of the rail foot) makes any practical difference at all when soldering rail to them.

In all the trackbuilding I’ve done with ply and rivet over the years, I’ve only ever used 2mm rivets and never found a problem.  My technique has changed over time.  I started off using solder paint.  I think that this may have been one of the suggestions made by Iain Rice in the 1990s in one of his early articles or books.  Either way, I found that it spat too much when it was heating up, and there was a risk of charring the sleeper because it needed a lot of dwell time with the iron because the soder paint didn’t melt consistently.

I then used cored solder, of the type used for attaching electrical components to PCBs.  This was much neater.  However the problem I found from this was the brown waxy resin residue that found its way into the web of the rail, and took a lot of scrubbing to remove.

Now, if I’m using rivets for trackwork, I only do it is strategic places and use plastic chairs for the rest, and I use normal 179 solder and liquid acid flux, just like you would for a brass or N/S kit.  It makes a clean joint, and cleans up well afterwards with no residues.

Bob is right in that you can use the plastic chairs. It does use more solvent as the ply soaks it up and it takes a little longer to grab. I have used this method successfully.  I was told the ideal way is to coat the sleepers in the solvent you buy from diy stores for plastic waste pipes will make the whole bond stronger

I’ve

I’ve heard elsewhere that drain pipe solvent used by plumbers is basically the same as Daywat sold to modellers, but a lot lot cheaper…

However, I’m intrigued by the idea of coating the sleepers with it.  How does that work, and to what benefit?  Because the majority of the sleeper is not and never will be in contact with the plastic chair.  There is some osmosis of the melted plastic into the grain of the timber, as that is how a very strong joint is formed.  But in my experience this is in an area little more than the base of the chair, not across the whole sleeper.

Best,

Paul

[Steve YoungKeymaster]

I’m thinking that using the thixotropic solvent would possibly be OK by itself. Don’t like the idea of using that AND butanone as well. I’m not a chemist but hate to think what the result could be or the fumes given off.

[Paul TomlinsonParticipant]

The datasheets on plumber’s pipe solvent from Toolstation/Screwfix lists Butanone (aka Methyl Ethyl Ketone, or MEK) as being the active ingredient – same as the modeller’s stuff, only cheaper. Steve’s experience suggests there may be a difference in viscosity, which will affect the method of application, perhaps?

[Bob AllisonParticipant]

Paul,

Historically, enlarged rivet heads were used for EM because the holes in the sleepers were punched to suit P4 gauge – the extra meat in the rivet heads meant there was more metal under rails which were 0.3mm offset from the rivet centres.  Heaven knows what difficulties that created in the days of cosmetic half chairs glued on once all the rails were in place.

Maybe John W can advise the spacing of holes in the current batch of “EM” sleepers held by the store.

Of course, 2mm heads would be perfectly fine for EM points, where the centres of the rivets are set by the builder.

Bob

[Trade OfficerKeymaster]

The current ply sleepers I have in stock are the ones that are for P4. These were ordered about 4-5 years ago. I could have a batch made to suit using the 2mm rivets. However…….

The supplier that both ourselves and the Scalefour society use have declined to quote for a new batch based on their belief they cannot make them to the required dimensional quality control. I am not sure what has changed

This is disturbing as when my current supply of the 2mm rivets run out I may not be able  to get anymore. Is this the beginning of the end of the traditional track building method???

If anyone knows of a company that makes such things I will follow it up. Otherwise I will have remove the 2.5mm rivets from the inventory

 

John

[Bob AllisonParticipant]

Thanks for the reply John.

Sad news about the rivets, even though I don’t use them (for trackbuilding) myself.

Bob

[Paul WillisParticipant]

I’m afraid that I’ve had two goes at submitting a post about how using 2mm rivets is perfectly possible, complete with a full set of photos showing the build sequence.

In each case, the Forum software ate it without any warning when I came to submit the post.  So I’m afraid that I’m simply not going to bother posting on here again.

If anyone is really interested in what I’ve done, then I’ll post the material later this evening on the Scalefour Society Forum, and I can provide a link from there.

Best,

Paul

 

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